Metaphysic Storm

Post by Vox Day an Award-winning Cruelty Artist

New Atheists and the Neocons - What do they have in common? Both of them took a proudly triumphalist posture just as their perceived popularity began to visibly collapse. Neocon boasting of a permanent Republican majority was still being bruited about only two years before the 2006 electoral debacle, while as I noted in TIA, atheist identification and popularity have actually taken declined since the New Atheist literary wave began:

“Most Americans believe that angels and demons are active in the world, and nearly 80 percent think miracles occur, according to a poll released yesterday that takes an in-depth look at Americans’ religious beliefs. The study detailed Americans’ deep and broad religiosity, finding that 92 percent believe in God or a universal spirit — including one in five of those who call themselves atheists.”

Best-selling books can, but don’t necessarily, prove the popularity of the views contained within those books. In some circumstances, it is the reverse that is more likely the case, after all, the fact that I own more than a few New Atheist books doesn’t indicate that I agree or even think well of the arguments contained within them. It is, of course, quite funny to see yet more evidence that so many “atheists” define atheism so broadly as to include belief in God. But they’re entirely rational… just ask them.

And of course, in nearly half the major cases, the New Atheists ARE Neocons. Both Harris and Hitchens fit the bill rather nicely; they’re not conventional Republicans, but they support American military adventurism in the Middle East. Hitchens, in fact, is very nearly a true Neoconservative as defined by the elder Kristol, considering his former Trotskyite politics.

Aren’t you the Christian who believes in Polytheism?

Eaglewood said, Bunny boy shows up. How ya doin’ Robert? Yes a good number of Christians understand that there are many gods but that there is only one G_d. The Creator Jehovah.

Hi Eaglewood. I’m doing fine. Getting ready to hit the west coast for some plein air painting. I had no idea that many of the Monotheists were Polytheists. So what makes a god a god?

Vox said, All Christians believe in polytheism. Note the definition:

the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

Christians worship one supreme Creator God. Not only does this worship not conflict with belief in the existence of many lesser gods, but the latter is quite literally Biblical. If Christians did not believe in the existence of other gods, there would be no need to capitalize God.

Now, you can certainly attempt to get pedantic, but you’ll lose. You’ll soon find yourself attempting to deny that what is by any atheist definition “a god” is not “a god”.

So what makes a god a god?

This is a reasonable definition:

“(lowercase) one of several deities presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.”

I would add: “supernatural” and “that is worshipped, propitiated or otherwise entreated for action by human beings or other sapient beings.”

MarkkuKoponen said,

@So what makes a god a god?

Whatever receives worship, be it sentient or not, is a god. For example:

Phl 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Not all Christians believe in Polytheism. That is a fact. I’ve asked around because when I read what you wrote about Christians believing in “lesser” gods I just couldn’t believe it. The majority of the Christians I asked believe in only one God.

I’m also curious to know what lesser gods you and Eaglewood believe in. Continue Reading »

Post by PZ Myers a member of the out cAmpain.

That smart guy, Carl Zimmer, has written an article on those smart molluscs, the octopus. I like that his conclusion is that we can’t really judge their intelligence, because it is different than our own.

That’s the same answer I give to questions about the existence of intelligent life in the universe. I suspect that it’s there (but rarer than most astronomers seem to think — intelligence is an extremely uncommon adaptive strategy here on Earth, as is probably likewise elsewhere), but that it will be radically different in intent and action than our own, as different as we are from a squid, or a dolphin, or an elephant, to name a few forms that have evolved large brains. Often, the question of alien intelligence is more like, “Are there people like us out there?”, and I think the answer to that one is clearly no, almost certainly not. There are too many alternative pathways.

I think that life is far rarer than most science enthusiasts assume. I know the numbers are big and there most certainly are many planets with water and the proper temperatures in this enormous universe. But the actual conditions that are required for replication to begin is in my guess very, very rare. However, once replication does begin convergence seems highly probable. Heads with sight, sound and smell detectors are going to be vital in any environment. Legs for locomotion and arms with hands are essential for environment manipulation. We’re so close in abstract terms to all the vertebrate mammals. Nearly identical when you use relativity as a judgment.

I also believe in an infinitely cycling universe because of the conservation of energy. Therefor, I think that life emerging from non life is inevitable when limited time isn’t a consideration. So even though I’m an atheist and don’t give any credence to personal reincarnation, I believe that there are indeed “people like us” out there, a “divine” natural design. The real question is when.

Stephen Wells said, Why would a head be vital to the gas giant airbags of zebulon-B, whose senses operate at radio wavelengths and whose intellect is dispersed among the swarm? Or to the megaclams of Gwflhrx, whose perimeter is studded with a thousand eyes and whose nerve ganglia are safely protected deep within their mighty shells?

J said, Sorry PZ, but that’s way too broad to actually mean anything substantial. What are you talking about when you say “people”? Bipedal and two-eyed, with penises and vaginas? Nobody subscribes to that notion of extraterrestrial life.

On the other hand, some traits of human life which are special on Earth (e.g. language) might conceivably have evolved many times in the observable Universe. Maybe they’re what Dan Dennett calls “Good Tricks”, which are prone to being converged upon independently.

Even within the swarm there are individuals and the head is a most efficient way to give the body the ability to navigate. I’ll have to give the megaclams of Gwfhrx more thought but I don’t know how far they would get manipulating their environment. Environment manipulation, I think, is a fair way to judge intelligence. Too much manipulation by the highly intelligent might be a good sign of idiocity.

J said, Sorry PZ, but, “Often, the question of alien intelligence is more like, “Are there people like us out there?”, and I think the answer to that one is clearly no, almost certainly not. There are too many alternative pathways.” [is] way too broad to actually mean anything substantial. What are you talking about when you say “people”? Bipedal and two-eyed, with penises and vaginas? Nobody subscribes to that notion of extraterrestrial life.

On the other hand, some traits of human life which are special on Earth (e.g. language) might conceivably have evolved many times in the observable Universe. Maybe they’re what Dan Dennett calls “Good Tricks”, which are prone to being converged upon independently.

Even within the swarm there are individuals and the head is a most efficient way to give the body the ability to navigate. I’ll have to give the megaclams of Gwfhrx more thought but I don’t know how far they would get manipulating their environment. Environment manipulation, I think, is a fair way to judge intelligence. Too much manipulation by the highly intelligent might be a good sign of idiocity.

@J “Nobody subscribes to that notion of extraterrestrial life.”

I do. Continue Reading »