Metaphysic Storm

Post by Vox Day an Award-winning Cruelty Artist

New Atheists and the Neocons - What do they have in common? Both of them took a proudly triumphalist posture just as their perceived popularity began to visibly collapse. Neocon boasting of a permanent Republican majority was still being bruited about only two years before the 2006 electoral debacle, while as I noted in TIA, atheist identification and popularity have actually taken declined since the New Atheist literary wave began:

“Most Americans believe that angels and demons are active in the world, and nearly 80 percent think miracles occur, according to a poll released yesterday that takes an in-depth look at Americans’ religious beliefs. The study detailed Americans’ deep and broad religiosity, finding that 92 percent believe in God or a universal spirit — including one in five of those who call themselves atheists.”

Best-selling books can, but don’t necessarily, prove the popularity of the views contained within those books. In some circumstances, it is the reverse that is more likely the case, after all, the fact that I own more than a few New Atheist books doesn’t indicate that I agree or even think well of the arguments contained within them. It is, of course, quite funny to see yet more evidence that so many “atheists” define atheism so broadly as to include belief in God. But they’re entirely rational… just ask them.

And of course, in nearly half the major cases, the New Atheists ARE Neocons. Both Harris and Hitchens fit the bill rather nicely; they’re not conventional Republicans, but they support American military adventurism in the Middle East. Hitchens, in fact, is very nearly a true Neoconservative as defined by the elder Kristol, considering his former Trotskyite politics.

Aren’t you the Christian who believes in Polytheism?

Eaglewood said, Bunny boy shows up. How ya doin’ Robert? Yes a good number of Christians understand that there are many gods but that there is only one G_d. The Creator Jehovah.

Hi Eaglewood. I’m doing fine. Getting ready to hit the west coast for some plein air painting. I had no idea that many of the Monotheists were Polytheists. So what makes a god a god?

Vox said, All Christians believe in polytheism. Note the definition:

the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

Christians worship one supreme Creator God. Not only does this worship not conflict with belief in the existence of many lesser gods, but the latter is quite literally Biblical. If Christians did not believe in the existence of other gods, there would be no need to capitalize God.

Now, you can certainly attempt to get pedantic, but you’ll lose. You’ll soon find yourself attempting to deny that what is by any atheist definition “a god” is not “a god”.

So what makes a god a god?

This is a reasonable definition:

“(lowercase) one of several deities presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.”

I would add: “supernatural” and “that is worshipped, propitiated or otherwise entreated for action by human beings or other sapient beings.”

MarkkuKoponen said,

@So what makes a god a god?

Whatever receives worship, be it sentient or not, is a god. For example:

Phl 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

Not all Christians believe in Polytheism. That is a fact. I’ve asked around because when I read what you wrote about Christians believing in “lesser” gods I just couldn’t believe it. The majority of the Christians I asked believe in only one God.

I’m also curious to know what lesser gods you and Eaglewood believe in.

Eaglewood said, It looks like Vox beat me to it Robert.

It is the simple understanding of who you worship. While there are many gods competing for this worship, Christians undstand there is only One worthy of that worship.

MarkkuKoponen said, @”The majority of the Christians I asked believe in only one God.”

That is because the Bible uses the word in two senses. Remember, the original was in all-caps, so they couldn’t differentiate with the capitalization of the first letter like we can.

See here, were both meanings occur very close to each other:

1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God (THEOS) but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods (THEOS) many, and lords many,)

So, only one THEOS, but THEOS many and lords many. It’s the same word, and the meaning has to be figured out by the context.

Eaglewood said, I will name one and that is Lucifer, his pride in thinking he was as great or even greater than Jehovah caused his fall. Even the Bible refers to him as the ruler of this planet.

Belief does not equal worship. I believe you exist yet I would never worship you.

I know that Christians believe in the Devil, which to me sounds like it has a lot of the characteristics of a god. But I assume that you believe in more than two gods. My question is what other gods do you believe in? Gods as individual agents.

If you don’t believe in them as individual agents can they really be used in that context. If they’re all so much less than “G”od, why call them gods. Why not ghosts or spirits?

MarkkuKoponen said, There is a very important difference to the kind of polytheism where you worship only one god however.

In polytheism, the gods are all essentially the same, and the worshipper arbitrarily chooses one. In Christianity, the other gods are usurpers, and gods only in that they receive worship. They are the creatures, and the True God is the creator.@”If you don’t believe in them as individual agents can they really be used in that context. If they’re all so much less than “G”od, why call them gods. Why not ghosts or spirits?”

That word was chosen in the Bible. Ain’t much we can do about it.

whoschad said, I think the problem here is that you guys are thinking two different concepts when you use the noun ‘god’.

Paul explains it pretty well in the 1Corinthians quote that was just posted. Just because there are many that are CALLED gods, doesn’t mean there actually are many TRUE gods.
Roberts zero eyes Again, what is a lesser god? Or a false god that is a god.

My question was begging for names. If some Christians believe that they’re many gods but are of such in significants that they remain a swarm identity I suppose that will have to do.

MarkkuKoponen said, @”Again, what is a lesser god? Or a false god that is a god.”

I would never use the words “lesser god” since that would imply quantitative, not qualitative difference.

A false god is someone or something that receives worship, but does not deserve it.

Vox said, @”The majority of the Christians I asked believe in only one God.”

You failed to pay attention. Ask them if they believe in only one god. And then, you might wish to ask them who the god of this world is.

@”I’m also curious to know what lesser gods you and Eaglewood believe in.”

The prince of this world, among many others. I also believe in Moloch.

Eaglewood said, @”I know that Christians believe in the Devil, which to me sounds like it has a lot of the characteristics of a god. But I assume that you believe in more than two gods. My question is what other gods do you believe in? Gods as individual agents. - If you don’t believe in them as individual agents can they really be used in that context. If they’re all so much less than “G”od, why call them gods. Why not ghosts or spirits?”

I believe the main reson comes down to whether or not someone worships said spirit. there are a number mentioned in the Bible, such as Molech, or Baal. I believe these and others that are not in the word such as some of the Hindu gods are real individual agents just as Lucifer is an individual agent. Jehovah does not control these agents so they are by definition independent. That still does not make them worthy of worship in my book. The fact that they do get worship only goes to show they do have power to deceive.

Be careful there Robert because Vox did warn about being pedantic.

whoschad said, @”Again, what is a lesser god?”

If you want my opinion (some here would disagree with me perhaps though), I’d say that there aren’t any lesser gods. There exist entities that are supernatural, but they aren’t REALLY ‘gods’.

But, on the other hand, I would say that any object that a person imbues the attributes of ‘Lord’ to could be called ‘god’.

Hasemorder, if you are an atheist (I don’t know if you are or not), then the person you follow is yourself. You have set yourself up in the position that the TRUE God should be in. Therefore you are your own ‘god’. (This may or may not be the case with you, I don’t know)

Eaglewood said @”Hasemorder, if you are an atheist (I don’t know if you are or not), then the person you follow is yourself. You have set yourself up in the position that the TRUE God should be in. Therefore you are your own ‘god’. (This may or may not be the case with you, I don’t know)”

If I may, I will answer that. Robert and I have a long history. He is an atheist with some “interesting” ideas. Some long time readers will know him as The Southside Rabbitslayer.

MendoScot said, I’ve told you before, Vox, stop poking the monkeys. You know what they fling.

And on a related note, more grist for the mill.

@ I said, The majority of the Christians I asked believe in only one God.

@@ Vox said, “You failed to pay attention. Ask them if they believe in only one god. And then, you might wish to ask them who the god of this world is.”

@ I said, I’m also curious to know what lesser gods you and Eaglewood believe in.

@@ Vox said, “The prince of this world, among many others. I also believe in Moloch.”

I did mention the dark prince in my inquires. The Christians I asked stated that they believe he is not a god. I also mentioned things like money and power. Again, they stated they were not gods even though they get worship.

I’m getting the impression some think I’m being a pedantic sh*t thrower. That’s not my intention and I’m sorry if I was interpreted that way. I’m simply fascinated with the polytheist Monotheist train of thought.
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whoschad said, I like the quote by Michael Lindsay in regards to this study as it appears in Christianity Today:”I think [the study] really underscores the sense that the issue with religion in America is not that Americans don’t believe in anything, it’s that they believe in everything”

Vox said, @”Be careful there Robert because Vox did warn about being pedantic.”

I was only warning him in the sense that it would be simple to out-pedant him on this. I don’t have any problem with his questions, they’re perfectly normal ones. Of course, the fact that many Christians think they’re monotheists is no more relevant to the substance of Christianity than the fact that many “atheists” believe in God is to the substance of atheism.

The difference is that a Christian who thinks he is a monotheist is merely a mistaken Christian, whereas an atheist who believes in God is not truly an atheist.

The difference is that a Christian who thinks he is a monotheist is merely a mistaken Christian, whereas an atheist who believes in God is not truly an atheist.The problem is that there is no word for what Christianity is. To speak of polytheism would be very misleading, since the religions that we generally understand as polytheistic believe, that there is no fundamental difference between the different gods. Even if a polytheist chooses one god, his religion gives no grounds for saying that those other gods aren’t true gods.
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@”I did mention the dark prince in my inquires. The Christians I asked stated that they believe he is not a god. I also mentioned things like money and power. Again, they stated they were not gods even though they get worship.”

You might wish to ask them, then, why he should demand worship from Jesus Christ and be able to offer the kingdoms of the world without any meeting any protest regarding his ability to do so. In what is arguably the most chilling verse in the Bible, Jesus later tells “now the prince of this world is coming to kill me”. Money and power are not gods, except in the metaphorical sense. Mammon, on the other hand, is a god, as is Allah.

It might also be a good idea to confirm that they understood that you meant “god” and not “God”.

Starbuck said, That poll this article is referring to I believe also reported that a very large majority of Christians (especially Catholics) believe there is more then one way to enternal life(heaven). 56% of evangelicals and 79% of Catholics. That got my attention. So the next time you go to Church, remember that more then half oif all the people attending Churches in this country are believing a heresy, i.e. false teachings…

numskulls… Proof positive that most Christians don’t read the Bible and will fall for anything that sounds good.

zeno said, @”If you don’t believe in them as individual agents can they really be used in that context. If they’re all so much less than “G”od, why call them gods. Why not ghosts or spirits?”

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Because it seems to be the terminology God uses.

Allah will suffice.

Thanks Vox.

Vox said @”Allah will suffice.”The interesting thing about Allah is that there is no shortage of archeological evidence that he was worshipped by the Arab tribes in Mecca prior to prior to 610. He reportedly had three divine daughters, Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat. From a Christian perspective, there’s no reason to doubt that Allah is a deity, the relevant question is whether he is identical to Jehovah, the god that Christians worship as the Supreme Creator God, or not.

Mendoscot said, @”I’m getting the impression some think I’m being a pedantic sh*t thrower.”

Not at all, Hasemorder. Stick around and you’ll see what happens. Of course, you may have noted that while telling Vox not to poke the monkeys, I also handed him a stick.

Whoschad said, @”The difference is that a Christian who thinks he is a monotheist is merely a mistaken Christian”

Semantics aside, as long as everyone understands what God himself says on the matter, it’s not a problem:

“This is what the LORD says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let him foretell what will come.

Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

Eaglewood said, I don’t think you were crossing the pedantic line yet either, just adding to Vox’s warning that there are those out there that have no problem following that bunny trail so to speak. We have been down many bunny trails ourselves and I think we both know where each other stand.

I am glad to see that things are going well for you. Is your art selling well?

Sort of OT for all of Robert’s interesting idea’s he is quite a good artist, and if I could afford it I probably would have bought one of his paintings already.

Jason said, The first commandment in the 10 Commandments is:

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me”

Why would God choose to make that the first commandment, or any commandment, if there were no other gods in the first place?

whoschad said, @”Why would God choose to make that the first commandment, or any commandment, if there were no other gods in the first place?”

Right after Isaiah says there is only one God he says this:

“Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit him nothing?”

Isaiah then goes onto explain that these ‘gods’ are nothing more than the wood they are fashioned out of:

“From the rest [of the wood] he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
“Save me; you are my god.”

God’s commandment is to not do that.

Vox said, @”Isaiah then goes onto explain that these ‘gods’ are nothing more than the wood they are fashioned out of:”

Pretty active blocks of wood, then, to interact with Jesus. Strange, too, that they should rate so highly on God’s list of Commandments….

whoschad said, @”Pretty active blocks of wood, then”

Perhaps some of these idols represent certain ‘principalities and powers’, but to say that they are all actual gods goes too far. if I constructed an idol of post-it’s here at my desk, it does not follow that there is some kind of Post-It god specific to my creation.

I think that de-throning God would naturally be at the top of the list of commandments. Whether you are dethroning Him for something that actually exists or doesn’t is secondary.

Pa kur said, So a god has supernatural power, is that right? But God is all knowing and all powerful and sticks all his enemies in hell to burn forever. Can the other gods do that? I don’t think so. In that sense there is only one all knowing, all powerful, hell-stuffing God. The others are just temporary, puffed up, fallen angels with delusion of godhood.

MarkkuKoponen said, @”Pretty active blocks of wood, then, to interact with Jesus. Strange, too, that they should rate so highly on God’s list of Commandments….”

Why is the non-sentient object of worship less god than the sentient one? Of course, in contemporary language it would be, but that is not grounds for saying that it is so in Biblical language. Why is the belly only a metaphorical god, whereas a malevolent spirit is that in a literal sense?

As for the second question, if I were God, I would take more offence if someone traded me for a piece of wood, than for a relatively powerful spirit.

whoschad said, I think Pa Kur gets it about right. If you want to use the word ‘gods’ the way C.S. Lewis does, then it’s not a problem:

“[God] said that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him—for we can prevent Him, if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine.”

I just personally think that this kind of language is more influenced by Platonic thought rather than Hebrew. The idea is spot on though.

superninja said, In terms of what is going on in the heart of the individual, there is no difference between the belly and the demon.

The thing is, however, the demon is sentient and can accept worship, perform acts, confer power, while the belly cannot.

The NeoCons and Atheists also want to (re)make man in their own image. The most dangerous philosophy of all.

As an artist with no gods I can tell you there is at least one who doesn’t see fit to remake mans image. 0_o

MarkkuKoponen said @”The thing is, however, the demon is sentient and can accept worship, perform acts, confer power, while the belly cannot. ”Yes, naturally they have differences, but the real question is if those differences are relevant to the Biblical definition of the word “god”. I have so far not seen textual reasons to say that the use was metaphorical with “belly”. It would be, if Bible was written on modern English, but there should be separate reasons to say that “theos” or “el” imply sentience. One definition for “el” is:

2) mighty things in nature

And theos:

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

Dread said, “So, too, whoever trusts and boasts that he possesses great skill, prudence, power, favor, friendship, and honor HAS ALSO A god…” - Martin Luther.

The dictionary definition of atheist…

a·the·ist - n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Luther proves for us here, that THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS!. Unless, you persist to believe that you deny the existence of yourself. Which for me and others, is quite, quite fine. Do what you wish…

au·tism - n. A psychiatric disorder of childhood characterized by marked deficits in communication and social interaction, preoccupation with fantasy, language impairment, and abnormal behavior, such as repetitive acts and excessive attachment to certain objects. It is usually associated with intellectual impairment.

an abnormal absorption with the self; marked by communication disorders and short attention span and inability to treat others as people

Many here, can say with confidence, (along with Luther et al) We rest our case. There can be no further refutation without altering definitions to suit one’s purpose (agenda)…

MarkkuKoponen said, The reason this question is important is that it will answer whether Christianity should be called polytheistic or monotheistic, since we don’t have a perfectly accurate word.

We don’t have the liberty to use “god” in two or more different senses when using those words. We need to decide, which sense the “theos” is used in *theism, and if the false gods are gods in that sense. If they are, Christianity is polytheistic, and if not, it is monotheistic.

Rex Little said, @”That poll this article is referring to I believe also reported that a very large majority of Christians (especially Catholics) believe there is more then one way to enternal life(heaven). 56% of evangelicals and 79% of Catholics. That got my attention. So the next time you go to Church, remember that more then half oif all the people attending Churches in this country are believing a heresy, i.e. false teachings…”

According to Christians of my acquaintance, you’re not really a Christian unless you believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus. So it’s not just atheists who have a problem with definitions.

My guess is that if someone calls himself an atheist but believes in God, he thinks that atheism means you disagree with all forms of organized religion. An incorrect definition, sure, but understandable.

@”From a Christian perspective, there’s no reason to doubt that Allah is a deity, the relevant question is whether he is identical to Jehovah, the god that Christians worship as the Supreme Creator God, or not.”

I’ve always been under the impression that “Allah” was simply the Arabic word for “God”. Muslims believe that Allah is infinite, omniscient, omnipotent and the creator of the universe, don’t they? Sounds the same as Jehovah to me. Muslims and Christians just disagree as to how this being wants to be worshipped, and what offspring It may or may not have produced.

Perhaps someone here know the answer to this: when an Arabic-speaking Christian refers to God, what word does he use? (This isn’t a “quiz question”; I don’t know the answer, and would like to.)

MarkkuKoponen said, @ “Perhaps someone here know the answer to this: when an Arabic-speaking Christian refers to God, what word does he use? (This isn’t a “quiz question”; I don’t know the answer, and would like to.)”

If I recall correctly, they have traditionally used the word Allah for Yahweh, but somewhat recently there has been a trend of using some other word, which I don’t remember, to avoid confusion.

Starbuck said, Allah is derived from an old ancient sun god the Arabs whorshipped. It is a false god.

superninja said, I think it depends on the context. It can be dealing with one’s heart, internal, in order to point out people are not properly aligned with God.

But obviously in some cases it’s dealing with external forces which have authority and are considered the enemy. They are deliberately attempting to direct people away from God.

Pa Kur said, I read before that Allah was an ancient MOON god, one of the reasons for the crescent symbol — a holdover from ancient moon times.

Allah is quite different from the triune God, the Elohim of the Bible. “Let us make man in OUR image.” Three, yet one God. Can your finite mind grasp that?

Chris Black said, @”The reason this question is important is that it will answer whether Christianity should be called polytheistic or monotheistic, since we don’t have a perfectly accurate word.”

Henotheists. Christianity is a henotheistic religion:

Main Entry: heno·the·ism - n. the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods

MarkkuKoponen said, @”: the worship of one god without denying the existence of other gods”

But a Christian’s views are immensely different from, say, a Greek who has arbitrarily chosen to worship one particular god that he happens to like. That Greek would be a henotheist, but he would have no logical grounds to say that other gods aren’t real gods, which is what follows from Christianity.

I think that the difference between a Christian and that kind of henotheist is much, much bigger than the difference between a polytheist and that henotheist.

superninja said, Islam is a mixture of pagan Arab religions and Talmudic Judaism interacting within backdrop of Roman Catholic influence.

Islam has almost nothing in common with Christianity, despite protests to the contrary.

They do not believe in original sin, therefore they deny Jesus Christ.

Chris Black said @”I think that the difference between a Christian and that kind of henotheist is much, much bigger than the difference between a polytheist and that henotheist.”

Both terms could describe Christianity depending on what each of them means. Christians are henotheists if henotheism allows for one Almighty God and a myriad of other deities of lesser power. This could also be polytheism, since polytheism allows for an Almighty as well. It seems that, at this point, we’re basically arguing over which term sounds cooler.

nienna said, ::raises hand::

For what it’s worth (precious little around here), I believe that there is a real “Baal” and “Moloch.”

Also, I think Artemis is an actual goddess, as she has been known in religious throughout history and has had different “names.”

I don’t think that reason they aren’t worshipped openly now negates their existance, they’re either quietly doing their work or active under another name.

I think you misunderstood the suicide bomber example. He wasn’t saying that the parents literally worshipped Moloch, but the act was worship in itself. Moloch hates children and revels in their suffering, so many ills that children suffer may be attributed to him: abortion being the most blatant.

Anyway, I’m sure everyone thinks I’m loony now.

Other pagan deities I “believe” in (but not worship):

Testalcoalt (Aztec god)
Aztec goddess who became reincarnated as Guadallupe
Most major Hindu deities
Allah (the ancient arab moon good)
Zeus/Jupiter
I think some gods in polytheism are recycled. That is to say, Zeus may be Baal.
And I don’t meant to insult any catholics, but I am almost certain that most “virgins” and “saints” are pagan gods and goddess with new names.

I know that it is forbidden for Catholics to pray TO them, but what is done in theory and practice are to entirely differen things. I’ve met too many Catholics attribute their healing/prayers answered/protection to “La Virgen” or “St. Joseph,” ,etc.

Does anyone have a theory as to why your creator god made the other gods?

Zeno said, To provide humans with an experience of which gods you don’t want to worship. Contrast and Compare, the road to Wisdom.

Supernija said, He did not create them as gods. He allows them to operate with authority over those who wish to remain outside of God’s authority. So, in essence, what I am saying is that they are your rulers.

They prop themselves up as gods because they are decievers. That’s what their leader is most known for, you know.

T14 said, Atheists believing in a world spirit or whatever is fairly absurd. Equally absurd is a Christian who believes this - “70%, including a majority of all major Christian and non-Christian religious groups except Mormons, say “many religions can lead to eternal life.”

Face it, the threat to your system of belief is not the atheist in Harvard square. It is the suburbanite attending a mega-church with a go-cart track. Joel Osteen, not Chris Hitchens, is the face of your faith’s demise.

@”They prop themselves up as gods”

“as gods”?

So those gods aren’t really gods in your book?

superninja said, *sigh* they are gods, little g, as they receive worship.

Chris Black said, @”So these gods aren’t really gods in your book?”

I think this should help….

god:

-not the One True God, Jehovah
-a sentient being that both receives and accepts worship
-worshiped directly or indirectly by human beings (one’s stomach is not a god in the literal sense, as it may indirectly receive worship, but it is not sentient and supernatural, nor can it accept worship)
-has limited supernatural power
-known to be violent, bloodthirsty, deceitful, murderous, sexually depraved, and/or downright evil by those that worship them; this is not to say that so-called “benevolent” deities are not gods (as they are happily redirecting worship from Jehovah onto themselves), only that they are not as blatantly obvious about their demonic nature
-may directly or indirectly receive sacrifices (ex: a suicide bomber would be a sacrifice to Allah; and abortion would be a sacrifice to Moloch)
-may or may not assume the identity of another known and worshiped deity (it is debatable as to whether or not Moloch and Allah are the same being, although it seems most likely that Allah is Lucifer)

Ex: Satan, Moloch, Baal, Zeus, Allah, the Norse gods, the Aztec and Mayan gods, the Hindu gods.

[Note: Demons, not angels, are gods. Angels would not want to be called gods because 1) only Jehovah is worthy of worship, 2) they would not accept worship, and 3) to be worshiped as a god would misdirect worship away from Jehovah. Though they have supernatural power, this alone is not enough to fit the bill of a ‘god’, as a god must also receive AND accept worship.]

Any problems?

….So a god is a supernatural agent who is dependent on the existence of Humans and their act of giving sinful worship. Which implies that the gods require Human belief for their existence. It’s much clearer now. But I’m still puzzled why the Creator god would chose to make such monsters, He sounds like a tricky devil to me.

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